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VVVVVV => VVVVVV Levels => Topic started by: Sendy on March 17, 2015, 09:39:44 PM

Title: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 17, 2015, 09:39:44 PM
Hey, Sendy here, back with renewed interest in VVVVVV. I'd like to ask a couple of questions to VVVVVV players, if they don't mind.

Firstly, could people say whether the HD version of my easy mode 333333 level made it into the latest version of VVVVVV? I'm getting conflicting information and am a bit confused, but I'm really hoping it made it into the latest PC version because I put a lot of effort into it. I believe the version at Terry's blog is out of date and has the old graphics. I can't seem to find a way to download the latest version (2.2 is it?) though I DO have the Make and Play version.

Secondly, is there any kind of centralized website/list of V6 levels? Because some people are wanting to play the HD version of my hard mode 333333, and I believe it's buried somewhere in the forums. I don't know if anyone remembers Knytt Stories but that had a level hub site which was highly useful, and might be even more so now that anyone can make levels!

Thirdly, would there be any interest in a final bugfix version of both HD versions of 333333 (easy and hard)? Because a bug crept in which causes the music to go silent when you rescue one of the crewmates, and there's an unintended exploit in the easy mode version due to an added checkpoint defeating a (rather evil) timing puzzle. If I were to get that sorted would Terry or someone else be interested in hosting them or including them in the Make and Play version?

Fourthly, if I made a sequel, with similar ideas but a smoother difficulty curve, or perhaps even a completely different style of level (but equally as large), would anyone be interested in it? In essence what I'm asking is, would it get played?  :D These things take quite a bit of commitment.

Thanks in advance for any input :)
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 17, 2015, 09:50:50 PM
Another thing, since I'm a chiptune musician, would it be possible to add my own music to my new levels? Or maybe even graphics?
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Dav999 on March 18, 2015, 12:39:38 AM
First of all, welcome back!

I can't answer all questions, but about secondly, there's only this board, and maybe some levels were posted on some other forums, but there's no dedicated site or hub for levels as far as I know other than this board.

Also, about your second post, since 2.2 you can mod the game without modifying the original game files. I can't remember the exact details but you just need to look at the package contents of the game and make the appropriate folders for what you're changing next to the levels folder. Also, music is encrypted but Terry said that a converter would be possible.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: ZeNewDragon on March 18, 2015, 09:02:49 PM
Welcome back! I'm interested in seeing a sequel, seeing as I super enjoyed 333333.

The HD version of 333333 got into 2.2, yes.

The extra checkpoint you're talking about is in "The Final Barrier," right?
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 19, 2015, 08:28:00 AM
Thanks for the welcome :)

Yeah, The Final Barrier checkpoint ruined my Evil Plans for that screen. Oh well. All in all, quite pleased with the level, considering I was rushing, and the level editor it's-self was still maturing/being developed.

What I'm thinking of is either a retelling of 333333 - with a bigger map, more gradual learning curves, with the hardest challenges (hard mode type stuff) being at the end of each zone as trinket gauntlets, with an option to quit at any time so that if a player gets out of their depth, they can warp out.

For example, in the Red Zone, the first room (don't cross the beams) kinda teaches you that if you jump into a vertical bounce beam and keep moving, it's kinda like a regular jump. This knowledge is useful in rooms like Reflexive Prison, which some people had huge amounts of problems with. With more rooms, I could have developed that mechanic more graudually over time. The movement puzzles such as "advanced flipmatics", were also a bit sudden and overwhelming for players, and "one last push" seems to be almost unilaterally hated  :D

It's funny, but it's taken about 5 or 6 years for people let's playing my level to filter through into Youtube, and it's really quite fascinating seeing people react to it in real-time.

The other idea, instead of simply remaking 333333 with better design, was to do an actual story sequel. Perhaps maybe the knowledge gained from the crew collecting the trinkets has fallen into the wrong hands and the V-sters have to go into the lair and reclaim them. The problem with this idea is I don't find vvvvvv's scripting system very good for telling intricate stories, and I feel my strong point is just making levels that are fun to explore and solve, and that look nice. I've seen some of you guys doing really impressive things with scripts, but it all sounds a bit version-sensitive and kinda dangerous to be honest. So I'll probably go down the "retold" route.

I also want to get some mileage out of those one-way floors and the dissolving block in Direct Mode. Are these safe to use in levels? I remember Terry saying don't use too many of the crumble tiles because they could cause an overflow or something, anyone know if this is a per-screen limitation or a map-wide one?

Anyway, I'm glad the HD version got into a PC version, even if it is the easy version. In all honesty the easy version is probably the better game. The puzzles are the same but just a bit less annoying. Thanks for letting me know ZeNewDragon! All I have at the moment is an old version of vvvvvv and the Make and Play version, and it's hard to tell which levels come with each install, because they all seem to share level pools with eachother.

Anyway, that's enough from me.. If anyone has any suggestions, advice or tips, feel free to lay them on me!
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: allison on March 19, 2015, 03:18:19 PM
I've seen some of you guys doing really impressive things with scripts, but it all sounds a bit version-sensitive and kinda dangerous to be honest.
The version-sensitive thing is a non-issue since everyone (including Mac and Linux users) is using 2.2. It is true, though, that the internal scripting exploit is pretty tricky to use...

I also want to get some mileage out of those one-way floors and the dissolving block in Direct Mode. Are these safe to use in levels? I remember Terry saying don't use too many of the crumble tiles because they could cause an overflow or something, anyone know if this is a per-screen limitation or a map-wide one?
The crumble block limitation is per-screen.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: shiny k on March 19, 2015, 05:06:32 PM
Oh hi, I never got to meet you!
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 20, 2015, 04:54:41 PM
Thanks crazya02. Will bear that in mind.

ShinyWolf, yes, hello! I'm back, but I fear I may have missed the party :victoria:

Suprised there aren't more people making levels, though I'm aware there's only so much you can do...
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: SJMistery on March 21, 2015, 02:37:03 AM
Well, we have been busy. I recently started to repair some beta versions of various levels. actually, i'm working on Abducted once more.

PD i hope this version is not as easy as the Hard mode, i only died about 200 times ;)
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 21, 2015, 12:49:48 PM
I didn't find Hard Mode particularly hard myself. And to be honest the main vvvvvv game doesn't seem hard to me. Some of us are just way too good at platformers  :D

My solution, should I make a next level, will be to have rescuing the crewmates at average difficulty, but then continuing on to get the trinkets will mean passing the harder challenges, so the levels will be twice as long and the themes will continue but with the brutal stuff in the 2nd half... and with regular warp exits where you can "cry uncle" and get back to the main mission at any time. It's really hard to provide something for everyone, and making easy and hard versions of a game can be a real pain when bugfixing and patching starts to come into play... speaking from experience  :(
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: allison on March 22, 2015, 07:26:10 AM
Suprised there aren't more people making levels, though I'm aware there's only so much you can do...
Well, I'm working on 000000 and tOLP2 will be released Soon™.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: SJMistery on March 22, 2015, 07:53:04 AM
speaking of which, i would like to join the team to make tOLP 2, and report a bug with the teleporters of the original tOLP
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 22, 2015, 09:51:58 AM
Glad the scene is still at least somewhat active. I got sick of vvvvvv after playing it for about a year when it came out, but after a few years' absence, it's still as fresh as ever in my opinion.

My only real gripe at the moment is the paltry amount of enemy sprites available, and that you can't alter enemy movement speed and stuff like that. I mean, you've got the coin, the blob, the heart, the broken heart, the glitch, the ice cube, the spinning blades, the bubble, and... I think that's it. MOAR!
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: allison on March 23, 2015, 03:19:26 PM
Glad the scene is still at least somewhat active. I got sick of vvvvvv after playing it for about a year when it came out, but after a few years' absence, it's still as fresh as ever in my opinion.

My only real gripe at the moment is the paltry amount of enemy sprites available, and that you can't alter enemy movement speed and stuff like that. I mean, you've got the coin, the blob, the heart, the broken heart, the glitch, the ice cube, the spinning blades, the bubble, and... I think that's it. MOAR!
You can use internal scripting to create enemies with unusual speeds. Using the same method, you can create enemies with an unused enemy sprite! It's not super interesting, though: it's an undulating box with an X in it...

speaking of which, i would like to join the team to make tOLP 2, and report a bug with the teleporters of the original tOLP
The window for joining the tOLP2 development team closed quite awhile ago, but you can apply as a tester at tolp2.nl. Report any tOLP1 bugs in the Dimension Open subforum at tolp2.nl.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 25, 2015, 05:17:29 PM
Could someone tell me how to change the enemy speeds via scripting? I've read a lot of information on the subject of script exploits, but didn't really understand it or see anything to do with enemy movement speed.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on March 26, 2015, 09:56:51 AM
333333 sequel report, I have 4 rooms with a yellow colour theme and the gimmick of having to use dissolving platforms as unlocks - only I've wracked my brain to come up with some fiendish puzzles beyond the obvious "unlock the door then survive the enemys and spikes" of levels like Dust Switch.

Graphicswise I'm going for a very layered look - with colour themed episodes like in 333333, but with a LOT more Direct Mode. In fact, everything is covered in Direct Mode, to add hints of secondary and tertiary colour schemes in the backgrounds, to provide continuity (so a screenshot map would look almost completely continuous), and to just make novel objects and more varied terrain.

I'm determined to squeeze every last puzzle and fun thing to do I can out of this game engine while keeping the difficulty around VVVVVV level, maybe a smidgen harder.

Again if someone can disclose the script I need to change enemy speed, I'd be much obliged, but there's no hurry, this game is going to take probably at least 6 months to make.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: SJMistery on April 06, 2015, 08:29:28 AM
you could use the one way tiles as a puzzle for one section, and include weird gravitrons on another, if you need ideas
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: ZeNewDragon on April 06, 2015, 04:04:26 PM
I hate it when levels use the Gravitron, to be honest.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on April 11, 2015, 12:10:50 PM
I'm finding no shortage of ideas, funnily enough. When I finished my first level I thought that was pretty much it. But there are so many permutations of gimmicks and design choices. One of the levels will feature fairly easy challenges but 5 or 6 of  them between each checkpoint. I've got a fairly easy falling level planned - 20 screens of falling while you dodge the spikes, but no sharp turns or nasty suprises, so it's more reflexes than luck and muscle memory.

And the potential of the dissolving platform as both a switch and a one-shot walkway around spikes is yeilding so much puzzle potential.

Now I think I've worked out how to change the movement speeds of both platforms and enemies (nobody answered my question earlier in the thread so it's just a hypothesis), there should be a lot to play with. Slower moving platforms means more can be asked of the player while they ride them :)
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: allison on April 11, 2015, 12:25:22 PM
I'm finding no shortage of ideas, funnily enough. When I finished my first level I thought that was pretty much it. But there are so many permutations of gimmicks and design choices. One of the levels will feature fairly easy challenges but 5 or 6 of  them between each checkpoint. I've got a fairly easy falling level planned - 20 screens of falling while you dodge the spikes, but no sharp turns or nasty suprises, so it's more reflexes than luck and muscle memory.

And the potential of the dissolving platform as both a switch and a one-shot walkway around spikes is yeilding so much puzzle potential.

Now I think I've worked out how to change the movement speeds of both platforms and enemies (nobody answered my question earlier in the thread so it's just a hypothesis), there should be a lot to play with. Slower moving platforms means more can be asked of the player while they ride them :)
Platform speed can be modified by opening the level in a text editor and changing the "platv" stat for the screen you want to have slower or faster platforms. Changing enemy speed is a bit more complicated; you have to use the internal scripting exploit and createentity to create enemies with different speed values.

Hope this helps...
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on April 11, 2015, 02:23:34 PM
Thanks, that does help. It looked like there was a speed variable for enemies, too, which could be tweaked in the text. At the moment script exploits are beyond my knowledge horizon.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: FIQ on April 13, 2015, 01:47:21 AM
Hi, I haven't been here for months, and only saw this now, but since 333333 was always my personal favorite, I just wanted to jump in and say that I'd love to see a new level by you. :)

There is a few level archives, but there isn't a full list of VVVVVV levels anywhere. I suppose I could mirror one on my host, but what do you have in mind exactly?

You mentioned that there's a bug with the tOLP teleporters -- what about it? and is it present in my own level (where the system was taken from) assuming you have tested it?

I can see if I can make anything useful out of the related VVVVVV source parts Terry posted a few days ago regarding music blob creation.

A note on custom graphics (and music) - VVVVVV now has all its' resources in a .zip file. You can copy this, place it somewhere (I forgot where, but I can look it up), extract the content and replace it with your own data. It has to replicate the in-game graphics behaviour (e.g. walls must still be walls in the edits and so on). With music, you have a lot more freedom - you can (in theory) push 16 tracks of your own, make a vvvmusic.vvv blob with them (with the same name and format as the originals, e.g. 14piercingthesky.ogg for example) and then they will correspond to the same numbers as the normal VVVVVV music. Remember that there is some tracks that you "can't access" (you can, and it's trivial to do, no idea why it was done this way in first place), and you have to insert invalid characters into a music() command to access them -- for example music(7a) (normally music(7) would result in Popular Potpurri, e.g. track 10).

In theory, since there isn't a tool for making custom music blobs right now.

Also, where can I find your music?

Good luck!

Thanks, that does help. It looked like there was a speed variable for enemies, too, which could be tweaked in the text. At the moment script exploits are beyond my knowledge horizon.

There is in fact a property for enemy speed, but it's unused, and thus you have to use the so-called "internal scripting exploit" to make any use of it. The exception is if you want to make an enemy stationary outright, which is possible by merely editing the entity data in the .vvvvvv file by hand.

Internal scripting in general is a bit weird -- even if you know how to do it, you might occasionally need to resort to kludge solutions because it can only do so much. (for example, to create an enemy, you need to make the enemy, but also make sure that it is made properly in all cases, never becoming made twice, and ensuring that it gets executed in first place, and so on. In the end, the scripts end up being fairly messy (as can be seen in script heavy levels)...
For enemy creation in particular, the necessary call lacks enough parameters for full control (basically, each internal script is converted to an internal VVVVVV function call and the function call takes 8 parameters while the scripting call only has 5), so no enemy border defining is possible, but otherwise works if you do it right.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: Sendy on April 17, 2015, 03:47:16 PM
Thanks FIQ, that's really helpful.

You can find my music here. Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/sendy (https://soundcloud.com/sendy)

And I have a full album for sale (or just listening to) here: https://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases (https://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases)

If you like chip music and artists like Squarepusher, Wisp, and u-Ziq, you might enjoy it.
Title: Re: Dimension 333333 version hell, and a possible sequel
Post by: The Snikle Force on April 23, 2015, 02:36:57 PM
I am still trying to beat the original...But I would LOVE to see a sequel!