Detox [2.1]

Started by allison, February 05, 2019, 02:17:43 AM

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hey guys! here is my regular level about bad things and why they're good actually

  • a prologue, 4 chapters, and an epilogue
  • 20x20 map with 20 trinkets
  • wow! it's meta
  • unskippable 3-and-a-half minute long musical number

* Added an option at the start to choose what FPS mode you're using, fixing an issue where cutscene audio would desync in 30 FPS mode
* Ported over fixes from the recent Overdose and Unshackled updates (namely: fixed an oversight where squeaks don't play in an Overdose cutscene, and fixed an issue where a room exit in Unshackled was too hard to see)
* Fixed some text boxes that were going off the edge of the screen
* When characters are quoting something, it now uses normal quotes instead of brackets

* added a new sequence to chapter 1
* added new music for the cutscene at the end of the prologue
* added a small icon to distinguish in-universe level dialogue
* changed another line of dialogue in chapter 3
* updated credits in the level metadata and the end of the level
* removed old title screen music

* fixed out-of-bounds glitch in chapter 2
* changed a line of dialogue in chapter 3
* fixed stray tile in chapter 4

* initial discord contest release

moth 🦋

this level is absolutely fantastic. guys, play it!!!!


this should be required playing for every vvvvvv community member

incredibly interesting level, i abstained from rating it but it's definitely 10/10 material

...wait does that mean it's not good from the perspective of itself

Ally 🌠

i would recommend this level as it is great and funny 37 meme. you also made me feel bad so i will dedeuct one (one) point  from todays scorea meaning no golden star fo r you today

anyway this level is really realyl good and yeah good job


I really really love this on a personal level lmao

Quote from: uugr on February 05, 2019, 02:27:59 AM
this should be required playing for every vvvvvv community member

we should totally like pin this level somewhere so newcomers can play it too

moth 🦋

Quote from: Coralized2578 on February 11, 2019, 01:55:43 AM
we should totally like pin this level somewhere so newcomers can play it too
we could make a "community hall of fame" forum topic where people could suggest levels to be listed in the masterpost, and dav could pin it (terry hasnt featured levels for a looong time and it would be great)


'pes.rwwoigesssssuv45hesjt6gggggjr5dmivvvvvvvhdsmgfrnhttttttttsv lroe5kt

Please ignore this shitposter: he spams and is drunkssau orvrsdlkvtd



the great updatening part 5? last year i started a project to make updates for all my levels (at least from before Levelmaking Sins) but i guess that didn't really happen. i might still get around to that, but for now here's a big update to detox! this is definitely the level i'm proudest of anyway, and now that this is out i can feel comfortable sharing it with people again.

the main thing added in this update is a new sequence in chapter 1 with dialogue that clarifies some stuff. not sure how to get more specific than that without spoilers. there's a tiny bit of new music too (also added to the soundtrack album), and an icon to make dialogue less confusing. so yeah!


on 2nd playthrough i got irony poisoning from the overdose chapter ("bad art is good not because art has no inherent value and what you think of as gods are but mortals, but because it's really funny when people put effort into something that i deem bad :D") - not because of changes made in v2.0 but because i just looked at how i felt more - and i guess the overdose dunking was self-reflective but it felt like a message that people are allowed to make "bad art" as long as they "correctly" regard it as hilariously bad, or accept that they belong in a "cringe" niche that the main clique can analyze and ridicule.

my main experience with the vvvvvv community in general (way back when, during tolp) felt like trying to act "in line" so i could break into a clique - don't feel any genuine emotions because only the designated art people were allowed to, make fun of the cringe young newbie users it was acceptable to make fun of, etc, and this feels like a byproduct of trying to produce a small amount of change in that era, dismissing the "stop making make bad art, don't even try" attitude with a marginally better "bad art is good because you can laugh at it or point to it and say 'weird' "

it's a good audiovisual still (this is weird terminology but what i refer to is the experience of the level as an experience rather than as a conventional video game level; the interactive audiovisual carved out of something intended to be a run-and-jump platformer is a continually resurfacing medium that remains underrated), especially the trolley problem dialogue, the surface-level "bad art is ok" thing, and the realization that serious art isn't better than "bad art" - but then the way "bad art" can be "better" seems to be mainly that one can marvel at it, chuckle knowingly, and say "wow, this is bad". (at the end the "serious art" is shown in contrast to be unconsciously authoritarian unlike the "bad art", which i do agree is a problem with art that tries to be dignified, and it's a legitimate reason to support "bad art", but the whole "haha bad art funny" thing almost contradicts it)

the "omg this should be required playing :-*" responses on the thread kind of reflect that this level is by, and for, a clique that the level sort of deconstructed but that it didn't actually dissipate

7/10 but i don't know what "out of ten" actually means because i'm scared of most vvvvvv levels i haven't played yet ;D


My reply of this level in the server, just to be truthful to what Wasp said :

Beat Detox 2.0 
Great Proof that levels aren't just levels
And that bad is not bad from everyone point of view, and that it's not necessarily bad to be bad
Along with a lot of community history
I feel bad that I was in the opposite mindset in the past
I'm so sad we probably made KostaRotaev leave (and a lot of it is on me) 
Those were the best levels
And obviously, there could have been a lot more from other makers we will never get to see 
I woulf almost pay to have people like that again  (again, not that I wish to see bad levels because they're funny to look at)
Calling them spam was a criminal offense

You're right that this level might put a bit of emphasis on "bad can be good because it's funny and cute so let's accept them".
It's fairly obvious to see why this is just not right.

Imagine someone making a level and finishing it. Which is already something ! They can be happy about it, even if let's say, they might confess that their level admittedly is a bit low effort or rushed to their liking.
They had some fun making the level, such that it was designed partialy for themselves. But they've decided to publish it here, eager to see what people will think of it. After all, it's more fun than keeping stuff to just oneself.

Then someones comes along, plays it, and at the end of it is like "oh lol this is so bad it's funny hahaha I can't believe a human person with a brain actually made that, like how is it possible to be this incompetent."
Or, a variant : "oh this must have been made by a kid. It's bad, but it's clearly trying to do something, therefore it's cute. I sure wanna see more of that so I can smile" when the person, even if young, was actually trying a little bit.
Does this seriously help anyone ?

But the thing is, warding yourself from these kinds of thoughts might create a bit of a empty hole in your level appreciations.
If I can't laugh nor smile when I stumble upon a level that is definitely strange, unusual, unlike any others to me, especially so to not offend its maker - maker that generously allowed me to play their level to begin with, cause they really didn't have to -, then how exactly am I supposed to react to them when I don't understand them ?
If you're used to that behavior, it might be difficult to see beyond.

Well, I think an acceptable limit would be to think that yes, something seems weird, strange, you don't understand. But don't attack the creator on it.
In most cases, the person in question was simply attempting to make a level for the first time, as a VVVVVV newcomer. It's unfair to have high expectations on them. (and honestly, just let people do what they want to do)
Then, remember that making things require a very different thinking process than playing. Indeed, when you play a game, you have to abide by its rules. When you make a game... the rules are yours to set. In this light, people are absolutely justified in making whatever they like. Yes, even if it means that one particular maker is seen as "bad" because all their levels consistently turn out to be "bad", at least according to other people's point of views. Because you see, they're too annoyingly simple and low effort, and it is abundantly clear the maker does not look to improve whatsoever. It's simply not the norm ! You don't understand why they don't conform, why they don't try to be like others, so you just feel angry. (I'm sorry, KostaRotaev, Pattoo1234)
As for the last kind of levels, the ones that are complex works yet truly elusive... it's okay if there's content, designs, level decisions you don't get. There will always be, and we can't be expected to understand the entire universe where our world belongs.
But it's not okay to think that the maker is dumb as a result of the level feeling irrational. Because you didn't make the level. They did. They know why stuff is like so. It's the polar opposite to irrational.

Just... have you even bothered once to ask them ? About why stuff is the way it is ? How they are who they are ? You know, seeking answers for your questions ? Showing signs of being interested in the level because of it ? Instead of brushing off their work as some disposable nonsense made by a crazy person ?

Wow. Not gonna lie, as simple as this paragraph is, it completely took me by surprise.
I have never been aware of this viewpoint. I was simply trying to expand on what I had written beforehand. But then, I read it again to see if things were okay, unsuspectedly, and it hit me.
It's to say, how there never has been anything of the such in the entire V6 community since its inception. Which I am a part of.

For a long time, I have been used to calling certain people legendary obscure levels makers.
This designates people who you can easily tell must have spent dozens of hours on their levels, because they are very complex, rich and have genuinely interesting and original approaches to things you would find nowhere else. Sometimes, the concepts of the levels are enough to warrant them this title to me (Kyuubi with Dimension Kyuubi), and sometimes it was the people behind them (Wequer and their levels).
...Issue is, these levels usually have a lot of "problems", and people might be inclined to think it's bad. And for some reason or another, they quickly fall into obscurity.
Even though, they would probably shock the world if you gave them just enough small light.

This is what happened with Wequer in the recent contest.
Before that point, they released a level called "The Closed World" on the forums in 2020. Then they made another thread about it in 2022.
Even with it being an incomplete demo (just as their one in the contest), I was speechless when I played it. It was the strangest experience I had in years. I brought it up in the server a couple times, but despite that, and these two forum posts, it seems nobody knows this it even exist. Why ? There's no way you can learn about this and not say anything.

Anyways. These were my thoughts on your words, that I've spent a morning writing.

moth 🦋

Quote from: Wisp on November 02, 2022, 12:14:54 PM-snip-
this is a really jaded and, like... disturbing interpretation. not once does this level mock or look down upon 'bad art' - the most it does is call it by that label, and it does so positively and in a deconstructed way. it's about genuinely and earnestly appreciating works of art that may be looked down upon in the very way you're describing because they don't fit conventional standards of 'goodness'.

it celebrates the joy of creating what you want, loving yourself, and not caring about what other people think. unshackled isn't included because it's 'unconsciously authoritarian' - it was consciously sanitized and stripped of the joy of the creative process in order to be 'acceptable' to others.

also, it feels kind of ridiculous to place the burden of eliminating a toxic community culture on a single work. just because it instantly didn't disappear the moment Detox hit the forums doesn't mean that it didn't have a meaningful impact... it took years for those attitudes to go away, and i personally believe that some of that introspection was directly caused by people playing this level - and learning about a way of thinking they hadn't thought of before. change doesn't occur in a vacuum, and it takes time and effort from lots of people.


I will confess that my paragraph about critizing the wrongs of the level was definitely rushed and done without any serious effort. I didn't remember the wording of the level very much, nor did I bother reading them again (and I knew about this fact while writing it, I was simply too lazy to do anything about it). Please disregard anything surrounding my opinion of the level. My server post was probably more accurate, but to be frank, I would also drop it because I'm not sure if I was fully out of these levelmaking misconceptions when writing it.
It remains an interesting and mentally challenging experience one might want to play. I'll never say otherwise.

Similarly, I have said that I never ever saw anyone show genuine interest in another person's "bad" level (and even in general), enough to ask them questions about given aspects so to better understand the level and author through it.
I hold the opinion that this is true. But that does absolutely not mean that the community is bad because we don't do that. Let me be clear, I didn't want to smear its name. The V6 community that I know today is fantastic, and I can hardly feel any vibes surrounding the appreciation of good and bad levels. That's just not a common subject of conversation that seems to happen nowadays.
It would be a big plus if we were used to having this extra layer of care (although I understand it takes a lot of time and can be exhausting). But not doing it does not imply bad.

The rest was focused on Wisp's raised issues, and I think my words were valid enough. They just don't relate to the actual criticizing of the level.

moth 🦋

Quote from: Balneor on November 03, 2022, 12:56:57 PM-snip-

yeah, i think what you had to say was really insightful! i don't tend to play a lot of levels myself, but i agree that a lot of really interesting and unique levels fly under the radar and aren't interrogated for what they are. Wequer's level from the contest was an incredible and one-of-a-kind experience, and i don't think i would have played it if it wasn't submitted for that. which would have been a shame!

and, Wisp - i think i may have come off a little strong, its just that your extremely sarcastic reply shocked me... you're entitled to your own interpretation. i personally don't really understand where you got it from and it left me wondering if we even played the same thing, but you don't have my brain and it makes perfect sense that we won't interpret everything the same way! i stand by what i said, but just know that it's not an indictment or anything


Well, I'm a little late to the party here, sorry. I finally got around to playing 2.0 so I'd like to give a few thoughts on some of this.

First of all, I cleared the whole VXVXVX segment without a single death, so I'd like my Official Gamer Certificate to be signed and notarized by the CEO Of Gamer as soon as possible, please. (I died 13 times on Overdose, though - it was harder than I remembered.)

I didn't notice any of the 2.0 changes, which is probably a good thing? It 'flowed' well enough with the original content that there wasn't any mismatch with my memory. That said, both of the ending cutscenes seemed to desync a little bit; the lyrics consistently popped up on screen a couple seconds too late and the closing static only came in after the ending song finished, so there was a moment of awkward silence. The opening was synced up fine so I assume it's a bug, maybe caused by VVVVVV 2.3? Worth looking into, anyway.

Quote from: Wispit felt like a message that people are allowed to make "bad art" as long as they "correctly" regard it as hilariously bad, or accept that they belong in a "cringe" niche that the main clique can analyze and ridicule.

I don't agree with this at all - actually, I think Detox is an argument AGAINST this, not an endorsement of it. Detox hit me really hard the first time, and a lot of the kick came from my expectation of it as a "joke level" for the Joke Level Contest. The beginning makes it seem like its shtick is "silly joke where the characters MST a bunch of cringey levels". When it turned out to NOT be like this, and actually really serious and earnest, it hit me like a punch in the gut. I was led to root for this obnoxious "ironic" running commentary, then when it turns around and switches to "actually, this is a bad way to look at things" I felt terrible about it. Which is a lot of what made it so effective to me.

Replaying with the benefit of hindsight, the running commentary on Overdose is actually kind of... limp? Vermilion and Viridian seem like they're trying to hate it, picking trivial or innocuous details to viciously mock because they want to see it as Cringe. (I mean, really, is a snortable hallucinogen THAT far-fetched? It's a fantasy world! VVVVVV can have whatever made-up drugs it wants!) I can't tell which dialogues are new and which ones are old, so I'm not sure if this is enhanced on purpose in the new release or not.

Quote from: mothjust because it instantly didn't disappear the moment Detox hit the forums doesn't mean that it didn't have a meaningful impact... it took years for those attitudes to go away, and i personally believe that some of that introspection was directly caused by people playing this level - and learning about a way of thinking they hadn't thought of before

THIS I agree with, though. I wasn't around for most of the Chara or Overdose stuff, but (if I remember it right) the VXVXVX thing was at least partly my fault. The first four chapters got buried, and then I wrote a big long thing about how bad the fifth one was. That plus Info Teddy's playthrough kind of cemented it as a meme, or that's how it seemed to me, anyway. I definitely joined a bunch of bad-level-haha dogpiles too (Pattoo was the big one I remember), which I feel pretty guilty about in retrospect. I'm not very active here anymore, but I haven't seen any bad-level-haha dogpiles in the past couple years and I hope I wouldn't participate if there were any. Detox may not get all of the credit for that, but it was at least a kick in the nuts that started changing the kinds of levels that were made; more earnest, more direct, less grim. Pocket dimension from the last contest is like that, as one example.

Quote from: BalneorSimilarly, I have said that I never ever saw anyone show genuine interest in another person's "bad" level (and even in general), enough to ask them questions about given aspects so to better understand the level and author through it.

Last thought: I don't remember any of this either, and it's weirder (to me) that it didn't happen with GOOD levels either. I did a lot of reviews and critiques, but I wouldn't have considered, like, starting a dialogue over a level. It just would never have occurred to me. I liked -Contain- a lot, though, and I'm glad it's not getting buried. Maybe I'll give The Closed World a go when I have the time.