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Archived => VVVVVV Tech Support => Topic started by: Boco on January 13, 2010, 08:40:12 pm

Title: Slippery controls?
Post by: Boco on January 13, 2010, 08:40:12 pm
I've only played the demo on Kongregate, but the controls seemed unreasonably slippery.  After letting go of a directional button, I'd continue for 6~8 pixels before coming to a stop; this happened even if I only tapped the direction (ie, the deceleration didn't correspond to any acceleration period).  Is this behavior also present in the full version of the game, and if so why was this level of slipperiness desired rather than, say, that of Rockman 2 (where you slip about 4 pixels from full speed but only move a subpixel amount if the direction is only tapped for a few frames)?
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Terry on January 13, 2010, 09:19:11 pm
Some people are reporting this, and I'm pretty sure it's just specific to some machines... I got similar reports about slipery controls from Don't Look Back. Could be something I'm doing wrong in my code.

Are you playing on a netbook or something? A virtual machine? Linux?
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Shasharala on January 13, 2010, 09:25:13 pm
I've noticed that since I have a dual core and if I tell the game to use only one processor that the game is less slippery.
I've played some fairly old dos games before and had to tell it to run under one processor otherwise the game would run at twice its normal speed.  Don't know if this is a problem for anyone else.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: StephenM3 on January 13, 2010, 09:35:36 pm
Yeah, I think this is a machine-specific bug.  Most people don't seem to have a problem with this, and in fact to some people it appears at first glance that there's no inertia in place at all (once you try some challenges like Gordian Knot, though, you find otherwise).
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Boco on January 13, 2010, 09:38:51 pm
I'm playing on a 2008-era Macbook (with the NVidia 9400M card if it matters).  I didn't have a similar issue with Don't Look Back.

The same issue was also reported by a few users on Sirlin.net, where I learned about this game.

Should I download the standalone demo to see if it has the same issue as the Kongregate version?
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: StephenM3 on January 13, 2010, 09:49:33 pm
I'm playing on a 2008-era Macbook (with the NVidia 9400M card if it matters).  I didn't have a similar issue with Don't Look Back.

The same issue was also reported by a few users on Sirlin.net, where I learned about this game.

Should I download the standalone demo to see if it has the same issue as the Kongregate version?
Hmm... I'm using a Macbook from 2008, and don't have any problems.  I don't have an NVida card, but that seems like an unlikely source of the problem.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Terry on January 13, 2010, 10:07:23 pm
Should I download the standalone demo to see if it has the same issue as the Kongregate version?

If you don't mind, that would be really helpful!

Do you have an nvidia control panel with an image quality setting? If so, try setting it to "quality" instead of "performance". I've noticed that this affects the timing code in some of my old C++/Allegro games, so it's worth a look...
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Boco on January 13, 2010, 10:52:30 pm
If you don't mind, that would be really helpful!
I tried the standalone demo, and it still had this behavior.  I was able to get movements as small as 2 px by tapping the direction, but the character still continued to move for an unreasonable distance if I waited more than about 10 px before releasing.  My earlier estimate of 6~8 pixels of slip is actually low now that I tried a few tests.

(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/Boco_XLVII/misc/Welcome_Aboard.png)

On this screenshot, just behind the character is a lattice 12 px wide surrounded on both sides by 2 px purple lines (16 px total).  The character is 2 px ahead of this tile and 12 px wide.  I started moving under the floating square (before the "W") and stopped holding the direction when the front of the character reached the first of the purple lines after the first black area (the line above the "b"), indicating a slide of about 30 pixels.  I ran this test a dozen or so times and this was the furthest result, but I never got a result shorter than the front of the character being at least partially in the second black space (a slide of about 16 pixels).

The character seems to move at around 2.5 px per frame, so even with 3~4 frames of user error that still indicates a slide of 8~16 pixels where I would expect a slide of 4~8 pixels at most.  Even accounting for error, with repeated tries the character shouldn't take more than a body width to stop, right?

Do you have an nvidia control panel with an image quality setting?
I do not.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Dreygar King of Elks on January 13, 2010, 11:16:00 pm
i have slippery controls on a win7 32 bit box.

will try on a netbook to see if it's different.

btw - do as i say not as i do is a maddening level.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Josiah Tobin on January 14, 2010, 12:57:11 am
The controls are pretty slippery for me too-- Annoying sometimes (mostly just at first), but I figured it was just how the game was supposed to be. I get a slide of about 6-10px if I hold a direction for more than about a half-second. Just tapping a direction gives me no slide.

I'm running it on an Acer Aspire One netbook, Intel Atom CPU, not sure of the graphics hardware.

~Josiah
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: eyf on January 14, 2010, 02:32:44 am
I find that Flash 10.1 beta gives me slippery controls in the demo and the beta. (Also, Hedgehog Launch 2 on Armor Games is totally unplayable on that version - the controls stick for seconds making it impossible to control.)

Downgrading back to Flash 10.0 fixes these problems.

The standalone version of VVVVVV works fine on my computer, though. (I guess because it's built with Flash 10.0 or earlier.)
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Boco on January 14, 2010, 02:41:23 am
I find that Flash 10.1 beta gives me slippery controls in the demo and the beta. [...] Downgrading back to Flash 10.0 fixes these problems.
For the record I am using Flash 10.0.32.18.  But the Mac and Windows versions might be significantly different.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: allen on January 14, 2010, 03:38:58 am
I have version 10,0,42,34 and for what it's worth, game runs perfectly fine. Controls are perfect. Windows 7 32 bit.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: repeater on January 17, 2010, 02:59:58 pm
I am also having this issue, and from what I have been seeing in different reviews and forum discussions of the game, many other people are too.  Unfortunately, I have also seen a lot of people comment that they are passing on purchasing the game due to the slippery controls, believing it to be intended behavior / design choice and not a glitch.

It happens to me at random on all the machines in my house, but here are the details of the two machines I play the most on since they are different enough hardware-wise to possibly help you rule out some stuff out.

LAPTOP:

OS: WinXP SP3
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo 2.0GHz
RAM: 4GB
GPU: Intel Mobile 965 Express
Flash: 10,0,42,34

DESKTOP:

OS: WinXP SP3
CPU: AMD Athlon 3500+ 2.22Ghz
RAM: 1GB
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GS
Flash: 10,0,42,34

DESCRIPTION OF ISSUE:

I can replicate the issue in all three versions of the game (browser-based demo, standalone exe demo, standalone exe full game).

The controls are lightly slipperly at all times, which I can best describe as watching the player slide a few pixels after letting off a directional key (slightly more slippery than say, Mega Man).  This may be as intended and doesn't impact gameplay at all, I can compensate for this by quickly pressing the opposite directional key if needed.

The big slips seem to happen after I have been holding a directional key for a second or more, usually during a long jump.  Once I land on a platform and let off the direction key, the player continues to slides for about 1-2 times his own width.  These slips I have not been unable to compensate for, and are pretty much guaranteed instant death in most parts of the game.

As you can imagine, this is pretty maddening on some of the more unforgiving levels.  A few parts of the game I just had to repeat nearly a hundred times until I made it through without the slip glitch happening, like "Do As I Say..." and some of the later sections with short platforms.

I still had a great time in my first run-through of the game though, thank you for your amazing work here!  I am gonna hold off on the time trials and the last two trinkets until this is fixed though, I just don't have the skills to pull those off with all the ice-level style slippage - or at least that is my excuse for now. ;)

Please let me know if there is any more information I can provide or anything I can do to help!
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Frampis on January 22, 2010, 12:47:58 am
I am also having this issue, and from what I have been seeing in different reviews and forum discussions of the game, many other people are too.  Unfortunately, I have also seen a lot of people comment that they are passing on purchasing the game due to the slippery controls, believing it to be intended behavior / design choice and not a glitch.

I'm one of those people. I do recognize that it's not intended behaviour but this input lag just makes the game so infuriating. I find this quite tragic because I really really like this game and would definitely buy it if it controlled properly. From what I've gathered, it's the fault of Flash since I have laggy input with other Flash games as well. Btw, I'm running Win7 32-bit and have laggy/slippery controls on both an nVidia and an Ati card with both the stand-alone and browser versions of the demo. My prosessor is a C2D something something so there definitely shouldn't be any issue there either. It just seems to me that Flash sucks and it's ruined this otherwise fine game. :victoria:
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Terry on January 22, 2010, 01:07:20 am
I really wish this was a problem I could fix. :victoria:

I have no idea if this will work, but flash seems sensitive to background processes slowing it down - are you running anything in the background that might be causing this on your system? A virus scanner? Printer Drivers? I'm grasping at straws at this point, admittedly...
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Yelnats on January 24, 2010, 09:24:26 pm
I did a few tests for input lag.

I used my digital camera to record a 30 FPS video of the game and the input device

New super mario bros DS:  1 frame of lag  (mario starts jumping the next frame after the button is pressed)

Cave Story fullscreen: usually 1 frame of lag time, 2 in a single test

VVVVVV fullscreen:  usually 5 frames of lag, 4 in one test

VVVVVV windowed: 3 or 2 frames of lag

My monitor is among the best of LCDs when it comes to lag.  Some monitors can add an additional 1-2 frames of lag (3-4 at 60hz)

I'll have to see if I can get a hold of a camera that takes video in 60 FPS.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Rox on September 05, 2010, 05:00:58 am
Super necropost bump!  :vitellary: Not that these forums are very active in the first place... And this is cute, the forum's warning me about how old this thread is and recommends that I probably should start a new thread. Anyway...


Hey guys! Bringing this thread back up because this is still an issue. I want to type a long story about affection and longing for this game, but I won't. Let's just put it this way; I got to play this game a long time ago now, beat it in one sitting and thought it was amazing. Much time passed and now I really want to play it again. Despite it going against my extremely rigid principles as a very low-budget gamer, I've been strongly considering buying VVVVVV at its current price for the past few days. Until something reminded me of this bug. I tried the demo again, and sure enough, it's slippery to the point where I don't think I'd want to play it again. It was like that the first time I played it, too, but I somehow faught through it.


Anyway, my computer's pretty decent, there's no question about that, just like some others in this thread. I understand that it seems to be an issue regarding Flash in general and that Mr. Cavanagh is powerless to it, but I really feel the need to check up on things one last time, before I either buy the game, or lay all thoughts about this game to rest.


If it helps at all and if Terry even checks these forums anymore, I did find one pattern when messing about. Someone else mentioned something similar, but not quite the same. My issue seems to be that the character slips quite considerably when letting go of the movement key after he's already reached maximum speed. The distance little Viridian will slide after letting go is much greater than the distance required to accelerate up to that speed in the first place. However, if letting go of the movement key before reaching top speed, he stops on a dime. Or a pixel, as may be the case.

I remember when I played the game the first time... Sliding around after long jumps never bothered me. Even if it's unintentional, that feels kinda natural. What got to me was when I had to make tiny adjustments, and holding the arrow key for a hundredth of a second meant the difference between stopping in one pixel, and stopping in 10-20 pixels.

That's rather disturbing. Let's say I'm on the edge of a tricky jump, or I need to avoid a particular spike or something. I need to move ~7 pixels sideways. If I hold the arrow key for as long as I feel I should, I'll start decelerating exactly where I need to stop - but keep going another ten pixels and fall off the edge/crash into another spike. If I let go JUST before that instant, I stop several pixels short, so I quickly have to tap again, and tap again, and if I tap a little bit too slow, once again, I go crashing into the opposite wall.


The thing that gives me hope that this could be fixed somehow, if Terry wants to keep supporting this game, is that there's no problem with sliding at any point before the character reaches max speed. Even if the problem in itself can't be solved, I'm sure there's something in the code, somewhere, that could be used to work around this. Does the instant stopping work when accelerating because of the acceleration itself? Then there might be some ugly way to cheat the game into thinking the character's still accelerating even though he's not and maybe then the sliding will stop? I don't know, I'm not a programmer and I have even less of an idea how Flash works, nevermind this specific game... But the fact that the sliding seems circumstantial in-game gives me hope. I really do want to buy this game now. I'll support Terry if Terry manages to support the game a little bit longer. I'll volunteer to test out these crazy ideas on my machine if push comes to shove, too. I just hate to see such an awesome game fall short because of something so seemingly tiny!



Heh. Looking at more videos of the game and trying to see how quickly Viridian stops in place, I realized something else... With the decreased friction that I seem to get, he moves very similarly to how the other characters move when they follow you around in the polar dimension. They take much longer to stop than Viridian does in these videos, but to me, they seem about the same. Anyhow, hope I didn't type all this for nothing!  :viridian:
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Terry on September 08, 2010, 11:26:40 pm
Well, basically: There is a small amount of horizontal inertia in the game, but it's very much intentional and I promise you'll get used to it and eventually like it.

However, in your case...

Quote
holding the arrow key for a hundredth of a second meant the difference between stopping in one pixel, and stopping in 10-20 pixels.

That does seem excessive. It is possible that you're experiencing a technical issue that unfortunately some machines have with keyboard input on flash games, and sadly there isn't a lot I can do about that :( It's possible, if you've been playing the online demo, that the game will run better offline. If that's the case, I'd recommend checking out the offline demo, just to be sure.
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Rox on September 09, 2010, 12:34:24 am
Yeah, I've already tried that. I've tried everything previously mentioned in this thread, which is why I chose to bump it instead of make a new one. Offline and online version behave the same, turning off every other program running makes no difference, nor does disabling one of my cores. I'm almost half convinced that's just how the game is, in which case I'd blame you for bad game design! But something as simple as looking at videos on Youtube confirms that, for some people, the game is more slippery than for others, and I just happen to be one of those people.

I figured some of the inertia was intentional, it just struck me as really odd that deceleration is near-instant before reaching top speed, but takes that long while he's going at maximum. It seems like a binary thing. I was hoping there might be some ugly way to fix it based on that (like removing the inertia completely which seems to me like it would fix the issue), but I can understand if you wouldn't want to dig that deep for what appears to be a problem plaguing a minority of people, and this is all just me speculating out of my ass pretty much.

Thanks for taking the time to read my enormous post in any case. Since V is now on Steam, I know I'll end up buying it either way. I think I promised I would do so on Twitter... This glitch will make some of the challenges much more frustrating than they're supposed to be, but I'll get by. It's still a great game, after all!
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: arbo on December 04, 2010, 02:20:50 am
Terry. PLEASE. PRETTY PLEASE.

Give us a new Accessibility Game Option: "Disable inertia".

If we can turn inertia off, we'll finally find out how much of it is due to Flash or hardware versus intended gameplay.

This issue made me discover I'm the precision platformer gamer type, I guess... All this slipping around feels absolutely frustrating, it really ruins the game for me completely, I can't help it. I get as little far as Trench Warfare and I want to turn it off. Please throw me a bone, Terry!   :'(

Got VVVVVV from Steam last week. Hoping for an update...
Title: Re: Slippery controls?
Post by: Terry on December 04, 2010, 02:52:32 am
I'm sorry, but there's no way I could update the game just for something as small as that at this point. Updating a game on steam is kind of a big deal, unfortunately.

More than that, while I understand that some people really don't like the horizontal inertia, I don't want to encourage people to turn it off because I feel very strongly that it's important to the feel of the game and that it's worth getting used to.

(On the other hand, if you're having input lag problems, try playing the game in a window - that seems to fix it for a lot of people.)