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Hello.

I'm not sure the creator is still around on the internet, and it saddens me because I would like them to see this. But without a lot of options at my disposal, a simple forum post will do.

Now how to properly introduce this, I do not know.
All I do know, that I will know till the end of my existence, is that I never expected the responsibility of such a legendary endeavor, to be upon my shoulders :

(don't know why page 4 and 5 are messed up)

Good

Would have liked more screentime for that hacker (can't find a way to spoil it sorry)

Elomavi on the discord server says :

"[...] Anyways, I've been TASing this for about 10 minutes and it seems impossible due to the gravity line's hitbox being offset by 2 pixels. It would theoretically be possible with a specific vertical align but none of the things I did could give you a good enough vertical align to be able to make it."

Unless there is a way to design this side of the room such that you can easily have this alignment (which would probably still be an obtuse solution, and still the less obvious thing in the entire level by a wide margin), I don't immediately see how to elegantly fix this without modifying the design of this part.

I know I'm a bit stubborn with this, and it's definitely not to be taken the wrong way. In the end I really want to play the level and complete it 100%, but it's simply just made very obnoxious by this faulty design. I'd rather just get lost in the maze and learn it thoroughly, than having to find the correct path. Both activities are fun, but the latter is evidently not the design of the level

I don't understand what you mean. Maybe you're not obtaining the token the way you're supposed to?

Just go to editor practice, and enter the token in various ways. Flip on it, enter with it with inertia, enter it with no inertia, enter it from behind. Surely, you will notice something wrong happening.

The level is a bit of a maze, although there are paths that are only possible to do in one direction, yes. Indeed, there is an optimal way to complete the level that does not even require you to visit all the screens.

However, the screen you show is quite possible to do from the right side as well, whether you actually emerge from right to left or whether you want to go from the middle to the right. At least for me, it's possible.

I do not doubt that there is an optimal path.
However, about your second statement, I can only disagree further. I have given it a tried again, many different positions, gradually from left to right, and nothing changed. Either you bonk on the wall which kills your momentum, or you hit the spikes at the same time of touching the line. There is no in-between. And I'm not doing complicated movement, just flipping off the ground and holding left at the correct time.
I won't believe it until I see it personally. If you are able to record videos, maybe you can help with that. Or even just beat it again right now, to make sure that what you remember is actually true. I will send it for someone to TAS to verify if it's possible or not, because it's beyond me, even though I should be really good at positioning stuff.
Sometimes stuff might look to be possible, but the physics then tell a different story. You need to be much closer to gravity lines on their right side to be able to activate them, than on their left side. Which makes going left to right here possible and not too bad comparatively, whereas you can be super deep and still hit it too late to be good in the other direction.

Cool level ! Pretty compact maze-like, not easy for my brain to learn, but that's just me. Some quirky physics bits here and there, and other nice rooms. Nothing over the top difficulty wise, it's generally consistent. Would definitely play again.

There is a slight entering problem with this token. It's easy to get off-bounds and die with it.


Now, I haven't actually finished it because there seems to be a backtrack problem. The following room seems to only be possible on the left side. I couldn't find any positions that allow it to be crossed from the right. Which is a problem, because it makes (2,3) and all of its branching paths suddenly become isolated from the rest of the level. Hugely inconvenient personally, and goes against the maze gimmick of the level.

Maybe I missed some big obvious escape path, and I'm fine with that, but if not, hopefully this can get addressed.

I will confess that my paragraph about critizing the wrongs of the level was definitely rushed and done without any serious effort. I didn't remember the wording of the level very much, nor did I bother reading them again (and I knew about this fact while writing it, I was simply too lazy to do anything about it). Please disregard anything surrounding my opinion of the level. My server post was probably more accurate, but to be frank, I would also drop it because I'm not sure if I was fully out of these levelmaking misconceptions when writing it.
It remains an interesting and mentally challenging experience one might want to play. I'll never say otherwise.

Similarly, I have said that I never ever saw anyone show genuine interest in another person's "bad" level (and even in general), enough to ask them questions about given aspects so to better understand the level and author through it.
I hold the opinion that this is true. But that does absolutely not mean that the community is bad because we don't do that. Let me be clear, I didn't want to smear its name. The V6 community that I know today is fantastic, and I can hardly feel any vibes surrounding the appreciation of good and bad levels. That's just not a common subject of conversation that seems to happen nowadays.
It would be a big plus if we were used to having this extra layer of care (although I understand it takes a lot of time and can be exhausting). But not doing it does not imply bad.

The rest was focused on Wisp's raised issues, and I think my words were valid enough. They just don't relate to the actual criticizing of the level.

My reply of this level in the server, just to be truthful to what Wasp said :

"
Beat Detox 2.0 
Great Proof that levels aren't just levels
And that bad is not bad from everyone point of view, and that it's not necessarily bad to be bad
Along with a lot of community history
I feel bad that I was in the opposite mindset in the past
I'm so sad we probably made KostaRotaev leave (and a lot of it is on me) 
Those were the best levels
And obviously, there could have been a lot more from other makers we will never get to see 
I woulf almost pay to have people like that again  (again, not that I wish to see bad levels because they're funny to look at)
Calling them spam was a criminal offense
"

You're right that this level might put a bit of emphasis on "bad can be good because it's funny and cute so let's accept them".
It's fairly obvious to see why this is just not right.

Imagine someone making a level and finishing it. Which is already something ! They can be happy about it, even if let's say, they might confess that their level admittedly is a bit low effort or rushed to their liking.
They had some fun making the level, such that it was designed partialy for themselves. But they've decided to publish it here, eager to see what people will think of it. After all, it's more fun than keeping stuff to just oneself.

Then someones comes along, plays it, and at the end of it is like "oh lol this is so bad it's funny hahaha I can't believe a human person with a brain actually made that, like how is it possible to be this incompetent."
Or, a variant : "oh this must have been made by a kid. It's bad, but it's clearly trying to do something, therefore it's cute. I sure wanna see more of that so I can smile" when the person, even if young, was actually trying a little bit.
Does this seriously help anyone ?


But the thing is, warding yourself from these kinds of thoughts might create a bit of a empty hole in your level appreciations.
If I can't laugh nor smile when I stumble upon a level that is definitely strange, unusual, unlike any others to me, especially so to not offend its maker - maker that generously allowed me to play their level to begin with, cause they really didn't have to -, then how exactly am I supposed to react to them when I don't understand them ?
If you're used to that behavior, it might be difficult to see beyond.


Well, I think an acceptable limit would be to think that yes, something seems weird, strange, you don't understand. But don't attack the creator on it.
In most cases, the person in question was simply attempting to make a level for the first time, as a VVVVVV newcomer. It's unfair to have high expectations on them. (and honestly, just let people do what they want to do)
Then, remember that making things require a very different thinking process than playing. Indeed, when you play a game, you have to abide by its rules. When you make a game... the rules are yours to set. In this light, people are absolutely justified in making whatever they like. Yes, even if it means that one particular maker is seen as "bad" because all their levels consistently turn out to be "bad", at least according to other people's point of views. Because you see, they're too annoyingly simple and low effort, and it is abundantly clear the maker does not look to improve whatsoever. It's simply not the norm ! You don't understand why they don't conform, why they don't try to be like others, so you just feel angry. (I'm sorry, KostaRotaev, Pattoo1234)
As for the last kind of levels, the ones that are complex works yet truly elusive... it's okay if there's content, designs, level decisions you don't get. There will always be, and we can't be expected to understand the entire universe where our world belongs.
But it's not okay to think that the maker is dumb as a result of the level feeling irrational. Because you didn't make the level. They did. They know why stuff is like so. It's the polar opposite to irrational.

Just... have you even bothered once to ask them ? About why stuff is the way it is ? How they are who they are ? You know, seeking answers for your questions ? Showing signs of being interested in the level because of it ? Instead of brushing off their work as some disposable nonsense made by a crazy person ?


Wow. Not gonna lie, as simple as this paragraph is, it completely took me by surprise.
I have never been aware of this viewpoint. I was simply trying to expand on what I had written beforehand. But then, I read it again to see if things were okay, unsuspectedly, and it hit me.
It's to say, how there never has been anything of the such in the entire V6 community since its inception. Which I am a part of.




For a long time, I have been used to calling certain people legendary obscure levels makers.
This designates people who you can easily tell must have spent dozens of hours on their levels, because they are very complex, rich and have genuinely interesting and original approaches to things you would find nowhere else. Sometimes, the concepts of the levels are enough to warrant them this title to me (Kyuubi with Dimension Kyuubi), and sometimes it was the people behind them (Wequer and their levels).
...Issue is, these levels usually have a lot of "problems", and people might be inclined to think it's bad. And for some reason or another, they quickly fall into obscurity.
Even though, they would probably shock the world if you gave them just enough small light.

This is what happened with Wequer in the recent contest.
Before that point, they released a level called "The Closed World" on the forums in 2020. Then they made another thread about it in 2022.
Even with it being an incomplete demo (just as their one in the contest), I was speechless when I played it. It was the strangest experience I had in years. I brought it up in the server a couple times, but despite that, and these two forum posts, it seems nobody knows this it even exist. Why ? There's no way you can learn about this and not say anything.


Anyways. These were my thoughts on your words, that I've spent a morning writing.

My comments about this level can be found in this video :

I beat this level. It took roughly 8 hours. It was one of my worst and unluckiest grinds ever. It took 50% more time to beat than the hardest challenge in Supernova.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADQe0hfp1qY

I knew it was possible and I wasn't scared by it. But it just didn't want to happen for multiple hours on end. This isn't for everyone, for two reasons :

For one, you need an intricate knowledge of the game in order to get realistically close to beating it. Do you notice my small movements I often do before heading forward ? Well, if you don't do any of that, this level is unrealistic to beat and you shall suffer greatly for it.
- Some bits of the level require to be on specific pixel positions to be beatable. If you do NOT take your time to find which positions are the good ones, and set them up, and choose instead to recklessly head forward, you shall suffer, as you will simply not be able to get past certain parts realistically.
- Generally using the same positions means you get to confront the obstacles in kind of the same way everytime, which helps with muscle memory. This is opposed to being on different positions in every of your attempts on a particular obstacle. You could be either a couple pixels off, or blocks off the position of your previous try, and the movement you need to chain from such positions to beat the section might be vastly different. You can usually get away with this in the vast majority of custom levels, and even the Nova series, but in this level, if you do NOT do that, you shall suffer, as this level is mercilessly precise.
- There are just about billions of ways you can take advantage of position alignments in order to make certain parts easier, if not outright cheese them. It can be as obvious as walking a two block wide gap, as it can be as subtle as having an alignment that in the next three seconds will give you good odds at not accidentally touching the killing edge of things. Especially spikes floors and ceilings, which this level has a lot in the second half. If you do NOT make use of that, you shall suffer, as your crewmate will randomly die in a seemingly infinite amount of different ways, thereby slowing down your progress tremendously. You desperately need this for the second half. Remember my Vase of pain video, what seems the correct movement will get you killed more often than not


For two...  this level is probably the most precise level I've ever played.
It's not to be confused with level such as Supernova that, despite their clear difficulty, are nowhere as precise. Put simply, they don't require a lot of frame-perfects. You usually have a lot of room to move your character around within each challenge's play area.
It's still really hard, because your broad movement need to meet a very tight expectations. But this does eventually mean that over time, it's possible to become good at replicating it. Without that, I wouldn't be anywhere near the level I have with Nova, which I played a lot.
On the opposite side, frame-perfects are only one-dimensional. In a defined time span, you can hardly improve on chaining a streak of frame-perfects tricks, but you can definitely improve on your overall execution.
And in this level, frame-perfects feels like the meta. Everything is very precise and careful. There is not a lot of room for improvement.

In room 1, you have two frame-perfects (including an alignment mandatory bit). Despite that, it's the second easiest room.
Room 2 requires one, and it can be messy, but I found myself to become great at it. Easiest room.
Now room 3, technically requires two. But it's unbelievably janky. Tokens have bigger hitboxes than spikes, and will catch you by surprise. Starting from there, most rooms are about equal difficulty, enough to make you suffer.
Room 4 and onwards is where you really need positioning strategies, as going without is akin to blasting yourself in front of a grenade yet expecting to survive. You only need one frame-perfect, the bottom edgeflip, but it's a super difficult one because you need to do it in 0.3 of a second, and finding its rhythm is difficult. Because of this I have once been stomped on it seven times in a row. But what will kill you most the time are unexpected spikes hitboxes breach. Such that it fits to be called a "jumpscare room". Room 3, and the last two are as well, but this one is by far the worst. Anyways, I made it there probably beyond 80 times.
Room 5, made it there 30+ times. 2 frame-perfects but you might need more that I don't realize. You would definitely need twice more if you don't set yourself up with the first two shafts in order to be granted two frame windows instead of one for both. The final frame-perfect flip is terribly chokable, and although it wasn't during attempts, I got stomped on it also 7 times in practice once.
And room 6. The place where 1/3 of my probably 12+ attempts were lost on the leftmost ceiling, even though I usually never come close to it in practice. I think you need 5 frame-perfects, 4 for the final box alone. The top middle bit is chokable, and the opening is a spike hitbox feast. But despite this apparent special type of hell, I felt that it wasn't that bad. I got stomped much more often on the previous rooms than this. It feels less dangerous than the other sections.



With this all said, I have no idea how I fluked the second half in a couple tries back at the very early days of this. But more importantly, why couldn't it happen again for 7 hours ?

Anyways, if you're not into horror movies, don't try this.

I don't know how SolarOddity feels about this overall, or if they share the same opinions and struggles as mine.
Knowing this level comes fresh from production, and hasn't seen much playtesting from its own maker, I feel like I should have be subjected to a way more sane version of the level.
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to make and publish something extremely hard without having beaten it yourself beforehand.
First, there might unknowingly be completely brutal if not impossible parts (like there was at one point), and second, doesn't it make the level unpolished in some way ? Like they don't try the full thing, so they might not realize that some bits are a bit too frustrating or random, and therefore not smoothing it.
Well, whatever happens at the end of the day, this is not an issue. VVVVVV makes it easy to play and share levels, no matter what they contain. And if people want to build a tower for only some to climb, more power to them. It's also all free anyways.

With that said, here marks my words that I beat this, and I'll never touch it again outside the individual rooms.


I think the win terminal describes your level perfectly

Looking forward to you giving this a try   

Already helped playtest this level in the Discord, so I won't have much to say.
This had a long time coming, so it must have been very gratifying to publish it.

This is mostly good and fun. Some bits are a bit rough, but with enough patience they're fine.
The last area is one level above everything else in difficulty and is pretty ridiculous, but thankfully you only need to face it for all trinkets.

I did play the old version, and I did get used to the unnerfed room 5. There's a (still precise) trick to it, so it's enough for me to not be too bothered by it. I think some of the individual rooms are harder than it, like room 3.
Since it's evidently a hard bit, I'll never get very angry if I fail it. Which I did once, on my best run, and I was just like, yea ok

Similarly, if there was a technique to take care of that infamous section in a reasonable manner, I would be much less pissed about it. It's bullshit until it's not basically.
A god would have it easy, and I'm not that, so in the end my expressions were only subjective to my skill level. Basically, my objective rambling wasn't one

Anyways, if you care about the level being not so insanely egregious, or if you think it would be hard enough that you wouldn't have much confidence in your abilities to beat the level under a realistic time-frame, you may want to change it.

(This is a remnant of something I was gonna write but this emoji   is ":" + "D", and to me this does absolutely not convey this emotion.)

I tried it, for about 2 hours.

You would be wrong, it is much harder than anything in zone 1-5 and even some parts of the final area of supernova. It might even take me more time than it took me to beat any of the rooms of that level, though not a whole lot more I envision. That said, to me* it doesn't feel as hard as stuff supernova can throw at you.

The first half is much harder than the second. The second one might look completely unreasonable, but is actually not fully bad if you use specific position alignments to make things easier (especially room 5). I have beaten the last three rooms in a row on their own without trying very much, tho I've been a bit lucky I feel like.
Full runs wise, I made it to the second half 7 times, three times to room 5. I feel like I should have been there a ton more*

There is nothing as hard as that section in your first level, but it's definitely not lacking hard rough sections.

Also it seems impossible to not accidentally skip the last room, so I tweaked the level so that it doesn't happen.

I'll make a video about it.



So that's what you've been doing. Interesting.
It would be very nice if you would finish zone 5, so you can say you returned alive from the spooky mansion. But no urge.

A new foe has appeared.
Let's see if this is harder than a certain section in Supernova. Also, what's your progress on that level ?

I'll give it a try when I can.
Well, at long as there's nothing like that section I hated in the first installment, it should be fine. Should it ?

Have you beaten this ? Or have made progress ?

Very nice and chill challenge level. You can definitely feel the Not Sure inspiration.

Gambit and Livewire composer spotted.

Short and peaceful exploration levels.

There are a bunch of areas where you can clip or get stuck inside walls, but it's no big deal.


I know it's only the result of an accident, but I find interesting that there are no crewmates in Space Colony. It makes you see and feel the level differently.
For once, your goal is not to complete the level, it's not to save the world, it's not to beat some challenge. What could it be ? Why would you play such a level ?

Well, one thing's sure, you can play the level, so you at least want to see what's in it. Exploring the world. Discover that it is barren, that there only remains pieces of machinery somehow still operating, old writings, and ancien derelicts.
It might be one of the few existing levels where you would want to mute the music for a more immersive experience. It's rare that you play VVVVVV without its music intentionally.

I think I would like to see more of such kinds of levels.

Hell, I could definitely see someone making a mystery adventure map where you solve puzzles and riddles to advance, and you never meet up with anybody. Would be rad.